I put together two examples of, in my opinion, how the nested data should behave in a tree-view. Of course the wiki is a group activity so I'd love to hear your thoughts on the topic. As you can see in these images, for each topic, all of the related sub-topics nest under it. I feel that it makes the information trees much easier to navigate.
Of coourse it's how the group feels about it, so I'd love to hear your thoughts. Also, there are some items in the images like Abilities (Nano) which I think are named incorrectly. As in this example, Nano will already be tagged as an ability, do we really need the word ability in the URL title?
Do we really need a category for every single item? That's what you did with pages like 7th Inning Beat Down [edit: corrected link] and I think that's a waste.
The current method of categories for mutations and abilities is going to be the following:
> Mutation Type (i.e. "Alpha Mutations")
> Ability Skill Type (i.e. "Rifle")
Having further categories is being too "deep" into folders, especialy since it'll only be for 2-11 pages associatd with each of those categories. Give me a few and I can show you an alternative table for a Mutation's category page that will compare the different ranks of an ability more dynamically.
No this is what I did, It's a Category for each topic. Just like the UI in the game;
To me, this makes more sense for when new people come to look up data. As opposed to trying to find items that we have special names for, which are different than the game and all the sites refer to them. Why do you feel we need to condense it? It's a Reference, it should be extensive to accomidate how many people think. And a waste of what? My time to enter it? Free web space? What are you conserving?
Also, I'd like to see data grids on these topic pages to compare just these items stats and where they are sold etc..
That was 3 weeks ago and I agreed doing manuals as a catalog is a bad idea. What ever, you keep doing what you think is right and I'll wait to hear what the group sez. So for you refering to the bat, I have no idea what your talking about. Why don't you look at the pictures.
Umm, why do you assume I'm not looking at the pictures? I'm seeing them. I disagree with how you want to separate mutations into subcategories more narrow than the type. Especially when you want that to be a manual process.
And in regards to the mauals and the items being placed into individual categories: yes, that was 3 weeks ago. You changed them back to being categories earlier today... Hence why you did what you said you were going to stop...
You might also want to read this Thread:19618 which is on your wall. And I quote;
"Idk, I kinda would like to see some categories, like say for example medicine, you'd have your main page like the manual/knowledge, but have everything under it's own category, such as Pathology, Trauma, Med Gear, and each of those pages could display the manuals and have all the items under those manuals in that specific category" ~ Yakumo257
As well as Tai Owens's suggestions. Idk why you insist on making less categories but you just keep cooking along since you don't care what the others have already said to you. I'm looking forwqards to the example you talked about an hr ago.
And having items like Category:Nano-Manipulation and Category:Abilities_(Nano-Manipulation) seems pretty redundent to me. But if the group like it, I'll go with it. But IF they don't like it, will you accept their take? Your going to great lengths to make it a hastle to undo. At least my example was only about 20 pages.
Maybe we should put it to a vote, since the this Wiki is lacking administation.
I think it should be organized like so.
===================================== Category: Actions [This is the name of the menu in game]
[The page itself saying something like this:
All characters have a selection of special abilities that augment the basic FPS combat system. For instance, a character with a sufficiently high Pistol Skill can learn the Pistol Whip special ability to knock down an enemy during a close-quarters fight. Rifle experts have a similar ability, called Rifle Smash.
Special attacks can increase damage, introduce status effects (like knockdown and stun), or even debuff an opponent’s abilities. Defensive special abilities—such as Armor Maintenance and Second Wind—can boost your armor rating temporarily and increase your Stamina. Note that using some special abilities require items, such as bandages for Stanch Wounds.
I would have to edit the verbiage you provided (Pistol Whip and Rifle Smash I don't believe are in the game now), but I take it you prefer to have a sub-category under Armor Use for Dreadnaught instead of listing all of the Dreadnaught ranks under the Armor Use category. Is that correct?
I like what you started to layout here and all the action items in the 3rd section, it make sense to me there. And your first section is the same as in the picts above. Like you I organized it by the games menu system.
That's also how it was this am, but he keeps reverting my work. He promised an example at 9am of what he is doing, but I haven't seen it yet. However, in part 2, why call them actions when the game refers to them as Special Abilities and refers to them as such else where in the other online docs as well as in game. I figure if we use their terms outright, we won't have to translate it into our own lang, then teach it to every new member.
As for those links, those are not good to use as reference... Firstly, those were created long ago and never updated by the game developers. There are still references to abilities that haven't exist in the game for over 6 months. Secondly, those are not examples of "in-game" references. In the game there is the "Actions Window" with two categories: "Abilities" and "Mutations".
I'd like the page "Category: Dreadnaught" to not only contain links to "Action: Dreadnaught 1" etc. But to also be a page of it's own. Containing this information.
But in a format more wiki based way of course. For example a table that would automatically grab information from the individual "Action: " pages.
And then have the individual "Action: " Pages contain this information in some sort of template
and of course things like where to buy it from underneath etc etc
If we do it this way, and the developers of the game change anything in Actions we'd be able to edit just that "Action: " pages and everything else above would figure itself out. (ie: the tables I suggested in the parent category)
Ah, the pictures seem to be working now. Based on how appears, that looks to me like it'd be better on the Armor Use category page instead of putting it into a Dreadnaught subcategory. Am I missing something from that?
When I look at my UI, I have an Attributes window, which Stats, Skills, Mutations, and Tradeskills are all a member of.
Just like it was this am, just like it is in the pictures above, and in EVERY wall post in topic of this thread. And if you call me a lier about it, I'll prove you wrong and roll back 9 page changes and prove it, again.
Second, these articles, wich I cited on several pages, were written 6-8 months ago.
Oh also I've never once seen them called "Special Abilities" ingame Vex, but would love if you'd show me an example of when they do. I don't doubt that it does at some point, just haven't seen it myself.
Also, just food for thought, if Dreadnaught was a category under armor Use, you could easily encapsulate all the needed info there. Like the Special abilities to it, the merchants, if there were books etc. From one page you could see all the options to learn about the topic in one simple page.
Well considering the MAJOR changes that have happened to the game recently. 6-8 months ago is a pretty long time, and considering on the amount of outdated data in the GamersFirst Knowledgebase. It's hard to consider it an infalible citation.
Anyways, Mutation Actions aren't mentioned as special abilities within that Knowledgebase. Neither are things like "Unstuck". They only mention the Actions provided by Skills as "Special Abilities", which I've allready suggested fall under the category "Abilities". I don't think adding "Special" infront of it is going to make any sort of difference whatsoever.
See the top part of that window, where the white text is that says Attributes? Well that is called a title bar. It usually acts as a way to identify the content contained INSIDE the window. Now right under that are these things called tabs, they allow you to view different pages of information in an isolated container. Now, I know that you have edited enough wiki pages to know that titles in the tabs relate to different character ATTRIBUTES, and where they are contained in the ATTRIBUTES window, they game makers are saying that these topics (Stats, Skills, Mutations, and Tradeskills) are child topic of attributes. Child topic means it goes under the parent topic;in this case attributes. So, in an informational tree you would see those four topics (Stats, Skills, Mutations, and Tradeskills) under the attributes category.
Vex? No... What are you talking about? Firstly, Dreadnaught is not a Dodge based ability. Secondly, I was simply responding to your post about your picture saying that Armor Use is under the Skills category which in turn is under the Attributes category. As it is in the screenshot and in-game. That's exactly what's set there now.
Here's an example of the Actions Window (N-key) as seen currently in-game:
This is why there is an Actions category, and then an Abilities and Mutations subcategory. Underneath that there are the individual "skills" and "mutations" sections.
Now, there is a "General" section under Abilities which I may suggest we place under a simple "General Abilities" category but we're more or less deciding on the term to use for those abilities.
The Alpha Mutations for the Mutations tab are also entered under a "General" section. I still think the Alpha Mutations should be under the Alpha Mutations subcategory as there are many places in the game that use that term as a reference for those abilities. Since the "unstuck" mutation is listed among the Alpha Mutations/General section, I think we ought to consider that an Alpha Mutation in the same manner.
Yes but not an Ability (Mutations) category. As in your Picture the Renue Category links to the First Aid and Abilities category. Or actions either or. Call it General Abilities, like you said, and link that under Actions. If data links under it, it's a category. First Aid is also linked under the skills Category.
VeX, you're reading things I have not stated nor implied...
I don't feel that separating the Nano-Manipulation category into smaller categories which will only have 1-11 pages each is particularly useful, and most definitely should not be done manually by adding the categories to the pages. If there is enough demand and use to be found by doing so, then I'm open to that further narrowing, but we should have the templates in use by the pages set to do that. That's not as difficult as it sounds and I can make the necessary updates if and only IF there is a particular use for narrowing to a category that can only have a single page (Flag of Truce is a good example) associated with it.
Well good thing your out numberd. 3 of us have said we want it. You don't like it, don't add them. I will. Why do you have against grouping data. How do you know what people want to read or know about. There is no downside, aside from the fact that you don't like it.
Yea.... but when you double click Alpha Mutation you get this
Note that "Unstuck" doesn't appear there. I think the only reason "Unstuck" appears in Mutations because of the way it reacts in game, it acts as if you're casting something so that there is a delay and you can cancel it. [Some developers easy work around obviously. Rather then make an ability that acts like a mutation, he just made a mutation.]
As for naming it "General Ability" rather then "Other Action" I honestly don't care what the first word is, but I think it'd make more sense to have the second word be "Action" rather then "Ability"
I cannot figure out these warning templates but the user Kindragon has been undoing every change I've attempted in the past 24 hrs and also reverted all of my changes from last week. Thread:20659 many of us have discussed how we were going to lay out the data and yet he has created and taken down several of the same pages all day.
"Each Mutation Path falls into one of three fundamental types: Augmentation, Restoration, and Destruction. " I would suggest we use this to our advantage and make 3 kinds of Mutation Templates. That way we can capture the approperiate data, which we can then show in a pretty grid.
I'm not sure about the Augmentation, Restoration, and Destruction templates. I would NOT like them as categories though (I know you didn't suggest that just clarifing). I'd like to see some examples of how these templates would differ. as oppsosed to just having 1 template for all that has a "Action Type" line (or something similar) that contains whether it is an Augmentation\Restoration\Destruction. Also note that Abilities are also separated into 3 types. Combat, Physical & Support. So we've also have to include them as "Action Type"s also
Oh no, just for data capture. Like The healing ones capture the number for to you or to firend. Another would be Dmg amount and Dmg Type etc. Just so we don't end up with 30 slot templates asking everything under the sun. They all look the same they just make the data entry a bit simplier for new folks to follow. They would all look just like the mutant ones now
Oh even better, 1 template for Augmentation & Physical, another for Destruction & Combat, etc. Then we just X on the Ability Line or Mutation line but they (The mutation/ability type) all offer the same scope of questions for their special type. Then it's still just 3 templates instead of 6
Once I get some time to make one, I'll show it to you. Just imagine one of those Mission Templates with 30 questions. Now Imagine we made a Road Rally Mission Template, that only asked 6 questions. But when I get some time to make one, I'll show it to you before I say it's good to go. Or another example is if we had a template for track and kill missions, just as an example, that wouldn't really be useful or much different from the base template to be worth it.
This would be a lot easier to read without all the venom. Please - PLEASE - stop calling each other 'Fool' and worse.
That's the main reason for my silence in threads like this (no, Vex, Kindragon is NOT outvoted. I just can't stand reading venomous threads).
Alright. That's enough on that topic.
1. I believe categorisation should be done in the templates. It makes it easier to change if we decide to change it, and makes it more accurate overall. (Much harder to make a mistake that way.)
2. The game DOES have two current ways of displaying skills and mutations: one in the 'N' (Actions) window, and one in the Attributes window.
However, with clever use of templates, we can provide two ways that players can view it in the wiki. Oddly enough, we can even make them correspond to the two in-game windows. (I confirmed this with Kindragon earlier. I suggested it, he says he can do it.)
So to me, that's a non-issue. Kindragon constructs the templates to permit both types of grouping, everyone uses the templates, problem SOLVED.
3. 'Special' or 'general' or whatever abilities probably should be their own category. By this, I mean the ones which are in the Actions window but not the Attributes window, and which are not sub-abilities of Slo;;s or Mutations. IE: sit, stand, mount, unstuck, etc.
Again, I'd prefer to do this with templates.
4. The sub-abilities such as Dreadnaught and Bolster and Dent Armour should, in MY opinion - and this is only my opinion - be listed under their parent ability.
I think you have, Tai. Take a look at the current setup I have for a mutation, like Category:Empathic and tell me if that's good, or if you still feel I should still have a separate category created for each of the sections on that page.
@Tai, thank you for the input. And I agree that if somone will take the time to make templates, I also would rather use them, and standardize the look and feel of all the pages. Also trust me, it's not typical for me to get so ticked off in a venue like this. However, when someone undoes every update you do and get 2k emails from wikia, it can get quite frustrating. I'm just glad that the data structure is back to a logical format.
So let me post some questions and I will take the groups decision;
In my mind this then links to the Category Fallen_Earth_World. That creates a logical pattern from the home or main parent page. The page that (the home page) would also contain the links to game mechanics etc..